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 Inicio  Foros Índice de foros BioWare General BioWare News Discussion Oct 23 2002 - Profile: Hardcore Rules (HCR)
BioWare News Discussion
Robin Mayne
Web Team Manager
Suscrito: 15 oct 2001
De: BioWare |
 Colgado: miércoles, 23 octubre 2002 06:59 |
The fifth profile of fan-created content that will be used in the upcoming Witchwork Series looks at Archaegeo's Hardcore Rules (HCR). Originating out of a desire to create a more traditional 3rd Edition Dungeons & Dragons experience, what started as a small collection of tweaks and changes by Archaegeo quickly mushroomed into a large-scale team effort with fellow enthusiasts.
Robin
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[ Edited By razorwise: Wednesday, 23 October 07:10PM (GMT) ]
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Robin Mayne
BioWare WebGUY
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Devildawgs
Game Owner
 NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
Suscrito: 03 feb 2002
De: the burgh |
Colgado: miércoles, 23 octubre 2002 07:38 |
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-kender-
Game Owner
 NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
Suscrito: 05 ago 2002 |
Colgado: miércoles, 23 octubre 2002 07:42 |
I just lost all desire to play this new module series. =P
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Derrick1011
Game Owner
 NWN
SW: KotOR PC
NWN 2
NWN 2: MotB
NWN 2: SoZ
Mass Effect PC
Suscrito: 25 jul 2002 |
Colgado: miércoles, 23 octubre 2002 07:59 |
Huh. Well, you guys had better be REAL careful about how you implement HCR. If you try to throw in the whole bag 'o tricks, you're going to end up with a module that truly sucks. This is especially true if you guys want this module to have any kind of multiplayer format worth having.
Good luck guys, but honestly, my reasonable expectation of how well this module is going to turn out just went down a peg or two.
Derrick | |
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Toxie
Game Owner
 NWN
Suscrito: 20 may 2002 |
Colgado: miércoles, 23 octubre 2002 08:12 |
DOn't listen to there people. The HCR is the ONLY way to play NWN. That aside, its the only way NWN can even claim to be D&D  .
Quote: Huh. Well, you guys had better be REAL careful about how you implement HCR. If you try to throw in the whole bag 'o tricks, you're going to end up with a module that truly sucks. This is especially true if you guys want this module to have any kind of multiplayer format worth having.
/cry. Real D&D rules in a D&D game, suprise! GO play Diablo with your other friends, let NWN shine as a D&D game.
[ Edited By Toxie: Wednesday, 23 October 08:14PM (GMT) ]
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Rob Bartel
Live Team Designer
Suscrito: 16 oct 2001
De: Edmonton, AB, Canada |
Colgado: miércoles, 23 octubre 2002 08:19 |
Quote: Posted 10/23/02 19:59:53 (GMT) by Derrick1011
Huh. Well, you guys had better be REAL careful about how you implement HCR. If you try to throw in the whole bag 'o tricks, you're going to end up with a module that truly sucks. This is especially true if you guys want this module to have any kind of multiplayer format worth having.
Good luck guys, but honestly, my reasonable expectation of how well this module is going to turn out just went down a peg or two.
Derrick
Don't worry. As was alluded to in the profile and interview, I'm making some substantial modifications to HCR as I integrate it into the Witchwork Series. I completely agree (as does Archaegeo) that HCR, used unwisely or without due care, can cause all manner of nasty trouble. It's not a blanket solution by any means, though many builders attempt to use it as such.
With the Witchwork Series, enjoyable gameplay is first and foremost in my mind. There is much to love about HCR but there is also much that I've had to disable, alter, or remove entirely to achieve the feel and vision I have for my module. I'm being especially careful with this initial module, as I know just how fragile low-level characters can be. Archaegeo understands and supports this approach and, in his interview, actively encourages the Builder community to do likewise.
In short, don't be too quick to judge. Though it draws on various existing fan-created components, Witchwork will be unlike any NWN module you've played yet. I've got over 300 beta testers making sure I don't settle for anything less. 
Hope that helps,
Rob
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Rob Bartel
Co-Lead Designer
Neverwinter Nights
BioWare Corp. | |
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-kender-
Game Owner
NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
Suscrito: 05 ago 2002 |
Colgado: miércoles, 23 octubre 2002 09:35 |
Quote: Posted 10/23/02 20:19:34 (GMT) by Rob Bartel
I completely agree (as does Archaegeo) that HCR, used unwisely or without due care, can cause all manner of nasty trouble. It's not a blanket solution by any means, though many builders attempt to use it as such.
AMEN.
My issue isn't with HCR it's with people that don't know how to use it. I should appologize as my initial post was just the instant reaction I get whenever I hear HCR because 99.9% of the people that use it do not use it properly.
I have confidance that the Witchwork modules will be an excellent series. The addition of player-made content shows a great ammount of support from the official designers.
I appologize again, this thread should not be an HCR debate but should discuss feelings about the series in general. If anyone wants to debate it with me further feel free to do so privately.
I did not sign up for the beta because I want to get the full effect from playing the modules the first time through. I really think this will be an excellent series.
[ Edited By -kender-: Wednesday, 23 October 09:35PM (GMT) ] | |
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Nekorkhan
Game Owner
 NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
NWN 2
Suscrito: 08 jul 2002 |
Colgado: miércoles, 23 octubre 2002 10:29 |
Well, this IS a HCR discussion unfortunately.
That's why I stop by, to voice my opinion against the HCR which, IMHO, is a wrong attempt at porting DD rules to NWN.
I'm very disappointed with this annoucement, NWN is a computer game and cannot comply to the p&p rules.
I recommand to implement versy simple rules for the 0 to -10 HPs situation, as HCR perfectly did, and restrict rest in a logical way (which HCR didn't).
I strongly advocate againt the fugue plane, food and such things we use around a table byt don't pertain (again, IMHO) to a computer game, it only adds to player frustration and is not even remotely linked to roleplaying.
If this was NOT a HCR discussion, can we have variables storage, please ?  | |
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Inky1
Game Owner
NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
Suscrito: 28 jun 2002 |
Colgado: miércoles, 23 octubre 2002 10:31 |
Well, I just read the profile and it all sounds good. I've been looking forward to Witchwork and now I read it's using a 'substantially modified' HCR, I'm still looking forward to it.
I've been following HCR since about version 1.3 and I've been planning to use it for about that long. I've recently finished a module (that uses default NWN rules) and, now I feel more confident about the toolset and scripting, I'm planning to make my next effort HCR/HCM. I'm aware of the issue with many people not understanding the consequences of implementing HCR in their modules and plan on not making that mistake. I'm a long time PnPer who plans to DM any HC module but, just as when I design a campaign for PnP D&D, characters who take it on will risk permanent death.
It's funny, though, because I've given Archaegeo and co's work a lot of thought over the last few months. The thing is, when NWN was released, I thought, "Close but not quite D&D, really. Too many compromises, understandable though they may be." When HCR came along, I thought, "Aha! What have we here?"
Now, everything is... different. The thing is, I think out of the box NWN is as valid as any game of D&D I've ever seen. The fact is, for all that it does not do or does differently to the core rule books, in twenty-five years of playing D&D I have never, ever seen a game that runs by every rule, as written. Even at official tournaments, the module that has not included some new or modified rule has been rare indeed.
And yet, I want HCR, not out of some misguided sense of purity or superiority, but for consistency with what I expect from my PnP experience. Yes, the module will be built with HCR in mind from the beginning. No, I won't use all of it and yes, some of it will be modified, because of what I want the module(s) in my campaign to be like.
And, of course, I am looking forward to Witchwork exactly as much as I was yesterday. | |
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Rob Bartel
Live Team Designer
Suscrito: 16 oct 2001
De: Edmonton, AB, Canada |
Colgado: miércoles, 23 octubre 2002 10:51 |
Quote: Posted 10/23/02 22:29:05 (GMT) by Nekorkhan
I strongly advocate againt the fugue plane, food and such things we use around a table byt don't pertain (again, IMHO) to a computer game, it only adds to player frustration and is not even remotely linked to roleplaying.
Agreed. Both food requirements and the fugue plane are already removed/disabled in the Witchwork Series.
Rob
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Rob Bartel
Co-Lead Designer
Neverwinter Nights
BioWare Corp. | |
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Urthar
Game Owner
 NWN
NWN: HotU
Suscrito: 13 jul 2002
De: Twilight Zone |
Colgado: miércoles, 23 octubre 2002 11:19 |
Thank %$^& for that.
I only tried HCR in the early days, but each time I did, I adamantly loathed and despised it. It was mad. Bioware went to all that trouble to cut out the boring stuff, and then someone decided to put a whole load of downtime back into the game.
When running PnP games, frankly, I cut to the chase. If the players aren't on the edge of their seats, then I'm not doing my job as a DM.
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Urkad
Game Owner
 NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
Suscrito: 30 ene 2002
De: Brooklyn, NY |
Colgado: jueves, 24 octubre 2002 12:11 |
Funny, every time I get on an HCR server, I end up leaving it hours later, swearing like a sailor (no pun intended on Archaegeo), extraordinarily unsatisfied, and vowing to never play HCR again.
About the only thing that doesn't bug me about HCR is the -10 bleeding rules. Resting restrictions make starting mages utterly useless, or really annoying ("We need to wait another 16 real minutes before I can be effective in any way.") and the fugue plane is just inexplicable: how does a first level character get out of there, anyway, apart from DM intervention? And if you're getting DM intervention, isn't that sort of like just respawning?
NWN is not PnP DnD. That's the long and the short of it. If you've got a DM, then maybe HCR is fine, because he can flout these beloved rules anyway, but if not, it's sheer tedium. It's a lot of sitting around, passing the time. I feel like I'm being punished, not like I'm playing a game.
Frankly, if you want to balance out the game better, limit resting to certain areas. I've played some mods that do that, and it's great: it makes you extra careful, because backtracking is such a pain. Maybe I just don't get the attraction of the HCR, not being a DnD'er myself (dyed in the wool GURPS geek here), but I really feel that the HCR is pretty much not suited to a computer game (again, unless you've got a DM).
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Devildawgs
Game Owner
NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
Suscrito: 03 feb 2002
De: the burgh |
Colgado: jueves, 24 octubre 2002 01:03 |
Quote: Posted 10/24/02 00:11:15 (GMT) by Urkad
Funny, every time I get on an HCR server, I end up leaving it hours later, swearing like a sailor (no pun intended on Archaegeo), extraordinarily unsatisfied, and vowing to never play HCR again.
About the only thing that doesn't bug me about HCR is the -10 bleeding rules. Resting restrictions make starting mages utterly useless, or really annoying ("We need to wait another 16 real minutes before I can be effective in any way.") and the fugue plane is just inexplicable: how does a first level character get out of there, anyway, apart from DM intervention? And if you're getting DM intervention, isn't that sort of like just respawning?
NWN is not PnP DnD. That's the long and the short of it. If you've got a DM, then maybe HCR is fine, because he can flout these beloved rules anyway, but if not, it's sheer tedium. It's a lot of sitting around, passing the time. I feel like I'm being punished, not like I'm playing a game.
Frankly, if you want to balance out the game better, limit resting to certain areas. I've played some mods that do that, and it's great: it makes you extra careful, because backtracking is such a pain. Maybe I just don't get the attraction of the HCR, not being a DnD'er myself (dyed in the wool GURPS geek here), but I really feel that the HCR is pretty much not suited to a computer game (again, unless you've got a DM).
I agree with the above statement.
I have yet to try a HCR mod that I didn't leave feeling fustraited.
and yes I play PnP also. On paper in RL these rules are not nearly as fustraiting as the are on the comp.
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Shadzar
Game Owner
 NWN
Suscrito: 29 ago 2002 |
Colgado: jueves, 24 octubre 2002 08:40 |
HCR can work.
but my problem with it is that most people/servers, use the "blanket" thing to just include it and not know how its going to turn out, some don't even care about the players, they care more about how "good" their server looks. all the extra bells and whistles may make a toilet "look" good, but in the end it is still a
#@%^-hole.
bringing PnP to the game is good, it could help gaming groups with ease of play. if computers are had by all then a LAN can be used in leu of PnP and the PC keeps track, as well as the DM.
i would have liked it if NWN came back to the players long before 3rd. i remember $100's spent on AOL each month just to play NWN. and thus would love to see how the new HCM will progress.
i just urge all using it to read the documentation, and dont just throw it in. make it work for your players AND your mod. GL on the progress of HCM, Arch. | |
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Haryon
Game Owner
 NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
Suscrito: 01 ago 2002
De: France |
Colgado: jueves, 24 octubre 2002 01:34 |
The idea behind HCR is nice : make NWN more challenging, esp. regarding rest and death. (no it will never replace pnp, and for that it should NOT be 3ed copy since it doesn't work that way, crpg is NOT pnp!).
Though, a lot of HCR is implemented using tricks (dirty tricks I often call 'hacks' because it sounds to me that's exactly the tricks a hacker needs to use to break a system).
While we really need a more restricted resting system (not only turn around the cliff and hit rest to regain all hp, all spells, but the mob is still wounded), HCR way to do it is ... grrr. You find yourself blind and deaf, if you wake up in mid sleep (by mistake or on purpose) you wasted your dayly rest and you don't lose blindness/deafness.
The bleeding is nice. Very nice for teamwork too. How painful is it to die and be reloaded away in 'bindstones' death system, while you could be incapacitated until a teammember heals you back to life.
Losing all equipment on death, so that your teammates can 'search your corpse' is a nice idea, BUT as it kills all your shortcuts, it's such a pain (why there isn't a placeable dropped next to you, you could talk to and see the list of items in the conversation, and ask for picking some out of it - less powerful, but less painful for the victim either!).
The need for food might sound logical, but it only forces you to buy tons of food at the nearest town (reminds me some games where you would just fill your backpack with the same ration, or healpoint).
Removing armor to sleep is logical, but again painful. You just waste a shortcut slot to unequip it before you sleep, and reequip after that. Also if you forget it by mistake (how can you forget to rem armor in realistic life ? - it's obviously a Out of Character mistake, so far so good for improving roleplay experience ! 'you look tired you slept with your armor again ? I told you to remove it, you don't listen to me right') you are dead useless for the rest of the day, and you have totally wasted your rest.
I think it has been told above :
HCR is ok, really depends HOW it is used. And I really hope BW doesn't screw their serie because they think it will please people to have a real D&D3 experience (bah!) !
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