Vulcano
Game Owner
 NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
SW: KotOR PC
Suscrito: 24 abr 2002
De: The Fortress of Moditude |
 Colgado: domingo, 25 abril 2004 10:15 |
Hi:
I'm just curious. The feats are now persistent it seems, but the spells and hit points aren't. Odd, at the loading screen, my hitpoints are tracked as correct when not online, but as soon as I re-enter the server, I get all my spells and hitpoints back. I don't know about the spells, but the hitpoint full heal seems intentional (i.e. a "feature").
I ask this because we have been running the HCR scripts to correct this. And I do say "correct", because it *is* a problem. Many players like to cheat. That's fine with me, just not on our server. By granting full heal and all spells back, you force us to run spell strips on enter and heartbeat scripts to track player health. Otherwise, players will (and certainly used to) just log to regain spells and full health. This is a serious issue. Any plans to address this?
Sincerely,
Vulc |
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Georg Zoeller
Senior Technical Designer
Suscrito: 27 may 2003
De: Austin, TX |
Colgado: domingo, 25 abril 2004 11:12 |
It is this way because the design team designed it this way. If you have another vision of the game, you are free to change this behavior by scripting, that's the beauty of NWN.
_________________
georg zoeller
senior rules and systems monkey
[da | me]
My custom NWN content
ceterum censeo ambulatiuncula esse delen |
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Vulcano
Game Owner
NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
SW: KotOR PC
Suscrito: 24 abr 2002
De: The Fortress of Moditude |
Colgado: domingo, 25 abril 2004 11:28 |
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Well, thanks, Georg, but why make feat usage save to the character file and not spells and hit points? |
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Zelphi
Game Owner
 NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
NWN 2
NWN 2: SoZ
Suscrito: 08 dic 2002
De: Here |
Colgado: lunes, 26 abril 2004 10:38 |
Because the OC isn't a PW or a module where you can rejoin at any time whilst someone else carries on for you. You do it yourself because you are doing something different. It doesn't matter in a single player adventure, this is a common thing for PW's to deal with. Or you can simply kick off people who abuse the system, becasue they aren't in the spirit of the place you are running.
Why save the state of spells and health on a character export when that's primarily intended to transport characters between modules?
_________________
Quote: Posted 09/14/04 15:35:02 (GMT) by Darcy Pajak
At this time, I can say that we have no plans to impliment a z-axis in Dragon age.
DA is a 2D sprite based game!
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Secret of Mana is the precursor to DA! |
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BaadF00d
Game Owner
 NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
Suscrito: 25 jul 2002 |
Colgado: lunes, 26 abril 2004 01:27 |
Just for Georg 
*extreme sarcasm* |
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shadguy
Game Owner
 NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
SW: KotOR PC
Suscrito: 02 abr 2003
De: Prince Edward Island / North Carolina |
Colgado: lunes, 26 abril 2004 01:45 |
Quote: Posted 04/25/04 23:28:27 (GMT) by Vulcano
Well, thanks, Georg, but why make feat usage save to the character file and not spells and hit points?
It's not an issue for SP games. 
+shad+ |
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Vulcano
Game Owner
NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
SW: KotOR PC
Suscrito: 24 abr 2002
De: The Fortress of Moditude |
Colgado: martes, 27 abril 2004 04:53 |
The fact that feats are now saved to the character file gave me a tiny ray of hope that spells and hit points might soon be as well, and this painfully taxing heartbeat script could be done away with, but apparently, this is not going to be the case.
Quote: It is this way because the design team designed it this way.
Still doesn't make it good design, does it? Far more efficient for someone that wants it to EffectHeal with a single function OnEnter than it is for me to cycle through 55 players, and save their hitpoint data persistently using the module heartbeat event and database/chartoken (and then damage them the difference between full and persistent saved OnEnter).
Seriously, does anyone like this "feature"? If the server has no rest restrictions, no loss there as you can immediately rest, at any time (and can still EffectHeal on enter with a single line of code). If the server does have rest restrictions, you get to have it your way at the cost of a noticable server performance hit. And this isn't limited to HCR. Even a server with rest limited solely by area restrictions (including the SoU campaign) can be exploited and overcome with a login/out. That's great design there.
I didn't want this thread to go this route. Thanks, Georg.
EDIT: It would break a lot of older modules as people could relog with negative hitpoints and not be dead. Why couldn't you have just posted that instead of drivel? And still doesn't explain spells.Edited By Vulcano on 04/27/04 05:01 |
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Georg Zoeller
Senior Technical Designer
Suscrito: 27 may 2003
De: Austin, TX |
Colgado: martes, 27 abril 2004 05:04 |
I wonder what your "route" comment is supposed to mean... (As I said several times before ... if you think you won't be able to live with the answer, you might want to consider not to ask as at all).
Zelphi pretty much explained it. NWN was designed to be played with a group of people and a DM - or SP. In SP, the player can do what is fun for him/her. If you play with a DM is there, just like PnP, there is either trust or the DM can use his powers to crack down on people that exploit the game in a way he doesn't approve. Even if there is no DM and you are playing with casual friends, it's your decision as well.
If you are talking PW again here ... sorry, then you are out of luck - our need to fall back to DMs or scripted solutions, because that's not NWNs original scope and you will have to live with that (or work around it).
People logging in/out is usually a reaction to resting restrictions, by the way - and if you feel it's exploiting, tell them and kick them if they do not want to follow your rules - just be careful that you don't get too extreme with micromanaging what your player do, because as soon as it's no longer fun (i.e. waiting several hours real time to be allowed to rest), they will usually find a way around it.
Also please don't misunderstand this - I have nothing against PWs - I have great respect for many of the PW builders out there and what they managed to do with an engine that's not designed to be used in that way.
_________________
georg zoeller
senior rules and systems monkey
[da | me]
My custom NWN content
ceterum censeo ambulatiuncula esse delenEdited By Georg Zoeller on 04/27/04 05:17 |
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Vulcano
Game Owner
NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
SW: KotOR PC
Suscrito: 24 abr 2002
De: The Fortress of Moditude |
Colgado: martes, 27 abril 2004 05:41 |
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Ok, fine. Maybe I shouldn't have said anything about HCR or PW or anything but "why is feat usage saved with the character file, but not spells?" That's what interests me, possible new scripting solutions. To me, saving the feats but nothing else really doesn't make much sense, unless the spell memorization persistence is also planned. Otherwise, why bother saving the feats? |
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Squidget
Game Owner
 NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
Jade Empire:SE
Suscrito: 04 abr 2003
De: Here. |
Colgado: martes, 27 abril 2004 09:37 |
Quote: Posted 04/27/04 05:41:00 (GMT) by Vulcano
Ok, fine. Maybe I shouldn't have said anything about HCR or PW or anything but "why is feat usage saved with the character file, but not spells?" That's what interests me, possible new scripting solutions. To me, saving the feats but nothing else really doesn't make much sense, unless the spell memorization persistence is also planned. Otherwise, why bother saving the feats?
Probably because there are a lot more spellslots that would have to be recorded then there are radial feats with charges. The difference could be an order of magnitude, and Bioware probably wanted to keep the .bic file as small as possible while saving as much as possible.
That's my theory, anyway.
_________________
You are so convinced that you believe only what you believe that you believe that you remain blind to what you really believe without believing you believe it. |
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Zelphi
Game Owner
NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
NWN 2
NWN 2: SoZ
Suscrito: 08 dic 2002
De: Here |
Colgado: martes, 27 abril 2004 01:53 |
I like the feature because it lets me jump a character into another world and not have to rest first. No idea what you're talking about when it comes to feats... I assume you mean number of uses remaining. I've never noticed it myself.
For my (WIP) PW I don't store locations, so people can't log and return (or even escape death) I recall town location if you're in one, otherwise you've escaped back to town (I haven't decided to script a penalty yet)... So if you try and exploit you don't get many bonuses out of it. No need to script all that storing of HP nonsense, just make sure they don't get what they want out of it. Keeps everything simpler.
_________________
Quote: Posted 09/14/04 15:35:02 (GMT) by Darcy Pajak
At this time, I can say that we have no plans to impliment a z-axis in Dragon age.
DA is a 2D sprite based game!
-
Secret of Mana is the precursor to DA! |
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dolynick
Game Owner
 NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
NWN 2
Suscrito: 03 jun 2002
De: Manitoba, Canada |
Colgado: martes, 27 abril 2004 03:25 |
Tracking hit points doesn't need to be done via an "expensive" heartbeat script. It can be done using a couple variables and a few lines of script in the OnClientEnter and OnClientExit events. Spell tracking can be done via BioWares spellhook, although it is not as easy to do "nicely" and can't enforce slot usage of certain spells.
I admit I would have much rather seen BioWare not make this design decision as well, but at least there are (in my opinion) reasonable solutions to get around it.
-dolynick |
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Lokey OSD
Game Owner
 NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
Suscrito: 26 nov 2002 |
Colgado: martes, 27 abril 2004 06:37 |
That most people use NWN for single player games doesn't absolve Bioware from all unwanted behavior found in multi-player, it says MP on the box after all.
An example of playing the game as intended and what kind of headaches this causes: The party tracks the BBEG to his lair, and after much combat have most of his minions dead and a nearly dead BBEG. However, the casters are out of spells and the meleers are running out of health...the wizard's digging through his pack for that flame arrow scroll he made when before they set out when...his connection drops! Log back in to frantically dig up that scroll when he notices that 1) he's back to full health and 2) all his spells are back. Now the injured BBEG is no problem.
Is it an exploit/bug? Of course not, the game is working as intended 
My main problem with this stance is that this information (memorized spell state, hitpoints) should be available for use while the module is running, no need for it to be saved to the bic file.
The scripted solution is a headache when it comes to spells--at least 10000 commands to execute and has to be run at least on client enter/exit (although a 1.5 second lurch is really only a problem for a world that has more than one group in it). |
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chaosprism
Game Owner
 NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
NWN 2
NWN 2: MotB
Suscrito: 18 oct 2001
De: Anauroch (australia) |
Colgado: miércoles, 28 abril 2004 04:39 |
Georg said it... and thats the key.. any problems you have with the design (apart from outright bugs) are exactly that.. by design.
I've made requests that i've thought might be minor enough for the live team to do. Thats all we can do and bioware has no obligation to implement any of it , of course we'd all like it because thats value for money. Until a new pricing structure comes in for added content, or design changes its VERY unlikely we'll see any remodeling of NWN design.
As to this relogging problem , I would have thought it would have been based on the "skill" level you had chosen if you had hardcore set then I would have thought that relogging would not restore your health and spells, but thats only what I would have thought. If bioware designed it to always restore health regardless of "difficultly" level then so be it.
A fact of life is the longer you stay with something the more the flaws become obvious and you forget all the wonderful things it charmed you with in the beginning.
That doesnt mean something better wont come along because in time its absolutely bound to. |
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aidonor
Game Owner
 NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
NWN 2
NWN 2: MotB
Suscrito: 15 jul 2002 |
Colgado: miércoles, 28 abril 2004 06:13 |
Just a note on this. I did some testing and HP, spell use, fdeat use all are stored on exit to the bic file. They're just not LOADING automatically. I don't know why they aren't or if there is a way to fix this easily. I basically loaded a char, cast spells, used feats and took some damage just to see what the bic file would store when I logged out. it was all stored correctly. The bic has spell info stored in numbered categories and I figured out how to tell what was what enough to see the stored changes using nwnexplorer before and after. I don't know why they're saving it if the data can't be retrieved unless BW has some functions to do so in the SP games. It seems if the functions are there to write the data on exit that a similar set of read functions should exist to load it onto the character at login.
_________________
---Aidonor
Dragon's Prophecy PW Admin
www.dragonsprophecy.com |
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