Firestarter
Game Owner
 NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
SW: KotOR PC
NWN 2
Joined: 05 Jun 2002
From: Brighton, UK |
 Posted: Friday, 16 April 2004 07:15PM |
After reading a column in PC Gamer about the CEP probably appearing on next month's disc I emailed them. Offering to beg for the cause of poor modem users like me I got this reply from Tom Francis the disc editor:
"No begging required, Neil - I've already put it on there. It'll be on sale on the 13th of May."
Similar enquiries to Gamer mag's in your region may get the same favourable response. |
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Seryn
Game Owner
 NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
SW: KotOR PC
NWN 2
NWN 2: MotB
NWN 2: SoZ
Joined: 24 May 2002 |
Posted: Wednesday, 21 April 2004 01:32PM |
Oh that is cool! Thanks for the update Firestarter. 
_________________
-Seryn
The Greypeaks Click Here |
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Psycho43
Game Owner
 NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
Joined: 31 Oct 2003 |
Posted: Wednesday, 21 April 2004 07:39PM |
I too use a 56kbs modem and cant be botherd downloading it thanks  |
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Architeuthis
Game Owner
 NWN
Joined: 15 Jul 2002 |
Posted: Sunday, 25 April 2004 01:24AM |
I repeat, the contributors to CEP did not give permission for their work to be published in this manner. Like it or not, these publications are violations of US and international copyright laws. The CEP group does not own the content in CEP, nor does NW Vault. It is owned by those who created it. Putting it on NW Vault does not mean that commercial organizations have the right to publish it in a for-profit magazine.
ArchiEdited By Architeuthis on 04/25/04 01:26 |
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Greyhound2
Game Owner
 NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
Joined: 02 Feb 2003 |
Posted: Sunday, 25 April 2004 03:15AM |
Is it my understanding that you somehow object to the publication of this material?
Also... Do you plan to raise your objections in some paticular fashion?
I am asking only to clarify the situation publically... |
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Architeuthis
Game Owner
NWN
Joined: 15 Jul 2002 |
Posted: Sunday, 25 April 2004 04:12AM |
Quote: Posted 04/25/04 03:15:59 (GMT) by Greyhound2
Is it my understanding that you somehow object to the publication of this material?
Also... Do you plan to raise your objections in some paticular fashion?
I am asking only to clarify the situation publically...
I believe I have made my position quite clear. Yes, I do object, and yes, I have raised my objections "in some particular fashion." I posted it here, did I not?
Some of the content in CEP is derived from artwork extracted from the game itself, and is therefore owned by BioWare and is subject to their copyright. If they have given their permission for the publication of their work in this manner, those items can be distributed legally. Other content in CEP was created by people with no connection to CEP or BioWare, and they have not been asked if distributing their work in this manner is acceptable to them. Some of that content was posted on NW Vault with explicit instructions stating that the content could only be redistributed by a third party if the readme file containing the owner's copyright information was also distributed in unaltered form. Those specifications have not been honored.
Posting something for download on a web site, such as NW Vault, does not automatically make it public domain. For-profit distribution of content that is not in the public domain requires written permission from the creators of the content. These magazines have not requested that permission. If they put CEP in the DVDs they sell along with their magazines, they are effectively selling CEP for profit, and will be in violation of copyright laws.
Please understand, my objection to this is strictly from a legal standpoint. Any violation of the copyright laws weakens those laws and makes it more difficult for the rightful owners to maintain ownership of their work. I should think BioWare would be particularly concerned, since a large part of what is in CEP is directly derived from their work, and is technically their property. Allowing their work to be altered and distributed in this way without even an attempt by the distributors to gain permission could result in loss of ownership rights. That is the letter of the law.
I am just asking for a little intellectual honesty here. The CEP group didn't make this stuff, they just took it off of a web site and repackaged it. Now we are being told that CEP is going to be sold for profit by magazine publishers, despite the fact that the content creators have not been contacted for permission. That's just not right.
ArchiEdited By Architeuthis on 04/25/04 04:22 |
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Teliol
Game Owner
 NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
SW: KotOR PC
Joined: 28 Jul 2003 |
Posted: Monday, 26 April 2004 07:53PM |
Quote: Posted 04/25/04 01:24:34 (GMT) by Architeuthis
I repeat, the contributors to CEP did not give permission for their work to be published in this manner. Like it or not, these publications are violations of US and international copyright laws. The CEP group does not own the content in CEP, nor does NW Vault. It is owned by those who created it. Putting it on NW Vault does not mean that commercial organizations have the right to publish it in a for-profit magazine.
Archi
The magazine is profit... the extras on the CD aren't.
What you are saying is like ... you pay for the demos lol
_________________
Hmmm...
English lessons,
Yoda needs... |
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Psycho43
Game Owner
NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
Joined: 31 Oct 2003 |
Posted: Friday, 30 April 2004 09:28PM |
Let me get this streight you have nothing to do with cep yes? and you are objecting against things that dont involve you, personaly i see a problem with this i also think its a great thing to do for people like me and fire starter who work of a 56kbs modem?
Tell me what part of this makes any kind on sence?
Also as stated in this post the mag makes all the profit the cd is FREE this means that in no way is it breaking the international copywrite law, as long as the mag dose not put up the pirce thay are in every write to give it away free.
Befor you make an argument get you facts streight so as not to make your self look stupid. |
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Watts Kard
Game Owner
 NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
Joined: 22 Oct 2003
From: Michigan |
Posted: Saturday, 01 May 2004 11:10AM |
I am fairly sure that by putting it up on nwvault it has become "public domain"
And since you can't use the bioware stuff unless you already own the game it came from..
Well once again, no problems. |
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Architeuthis
Game Owner
NWN
Joined: 15 Jul 2002 |
Posted: Saturday, 01 May 2004 11:58PM |
Quote: Posted 04/26/04 19:53:48 (GMT) by Teliol
The magazine is profit... the extras on the CD aren't.
What you are saying is like ... you pay for the demos lol
That's right...you pay for the demos. The magazines packaged with CDs/DVDs cost more than the same magazine without the disc. That means you are paying for the disc. If you don't believe me, contact one of these mags and ask them to send you the cover disc at no charge, without the magazine.
Quote: Posted 04/30/04 21:28:46 (GMT) by Psycho43 Let me get this streight you have nothing to do with cep yes? and you are objecting against things that dont involve you, personaly i see a problem with this i also think its a great thing to do for people like me and fire starter who work of a 56kbs modem? Tell me what part of this makes any kind on sence? Also as stated in this post the mag makes all the profit the cd is FREE this means that in no way is it breaking the international copywrite law, as long as the mag dose not put up the pirce thay are in every write to give it away free. Befor you make an argument get you facts streight so as not to make your self look stupid.
Who is making themself look stupid? Me, for objecting to the distribution of MY content in CEP without my consent (yes, that's right, things I made are in CEP, under another name), and for trying to see to it that copyright is protected, or you, for showing your ignorance of copyright law and for making the assumption that I have nothing to do with CEP? The CEP group does not own the content in CEP, nor is it automatically in the public domain because it is distributed via a web site. Furthermore, copyright violations do not require that any profit be made by the illicit distribution of copyrighted materials. Are you saying I could post an entire Stephen King novel on the web for free, and that this would not violate Stephen King's copyright? That's not the case. The creator has an absolute right to control distribution of their work regardless of whether the unprivileged distributor makes money on it or not.
Quote: Posted 05/01/04 11:10:37 (GMT) by Watts Kard
I am fairly sure that by putting it up on nwvault it has become "public domain"
And since you can't use the bioware stuff unless you already own the game it came from..
Well once again, no problems.
Both points are incorrect. Choosing to allow a piece of work to be distributed on a web site does not eliminate the right of a content creator to control distribution of their work through other channels. This is a well-established part of copyright law. A number of custom content makers include readme files with their work that point out the restrictions on distribution. The CEP group removed those copyright statements and distributed the content without the copyright information, violating the restrictions the creators placed on distribution of their work.
As for needing the game to use the "BioWare stuff," items extracted from the game can in fact be converted for use in other games. This was done in reverse by some people who made an extractor for Dungeon Siege and started putting Dungeon Siege content on NW Vault. Maximus wisely put a stop to this when objections were raised. So, a person who does not have the game could still take things from CEP and distribute them for use in games like Dungeon Siege, or as has already happened, Warcraft III.
PC Gamer UK has contacted me and requested permission to distribute anything I made that is in CEP. I plan to give them permission. That will protect my ownership rights, whereas allowing them to distribute it without even trying to protect my rights could result in a loss of ownership rights. I also suggested that they post a request for permission on the NW Vault site, since they have no contact information for the people who actually made the content in CEP.
It's too bad the CEP group apparently didn't consider the ownership rights of the custom content makers important enough to even attempt to get permission to distribute it as if it were their own work. I have had other builders ask me if they could use my work. I have always said yes. Apparently CEP did make concessions to some cc makers. I hear they contacted the CODI group, who declined to allow their work to appear in CEP. The same courtesy should have been extended to all of us. I wouldn't have said no. It is the disregard for my rights as a content maker that I object to. I'm not trying to keep dialup users from getting CEP. I am just trying to protect my rights. I can't sell what I make for NWN because the EULA forbids it. Why should someone else be able to take what I made and sell it without my consent?
Archi |
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Drewskie
Game Owner
 NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
SW: KotOR PC
NWN 2
NWN 2: MotB
Mass Effect PC
Joined: 26 Jul 2002
From: Fargo, ND |
Posted: Sunday, 02 May 2004 08:47PM |
What a sour puss. Anything you contributed is most likely garbage anyways...
I'm sure pc gamer has compenent lawyers. Why don't you start a law suit? Maybe you can arrange for some royalties. Christ... |
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Drewskie
Game Owner
NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
SW: KotOR PC
NWN 2
NWN 2: MotB
Mass Effect PC
Joined: 26 Jul 2002
From: Fargo, ND |
Posted: Sunday, 02 May 2004 09:29PM |
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They sell two versions of that magazine: one with the demo disk and one without. Easy enough to buy the one without if you are'nt interested in the disk's contents. Maximus made an offer to burn the cep onto any cd sent to him for free. You only needed to send the cd and stamps for shipping. Compare the price between the two versions of the mag(it's only like one dollar), then compare that with with the expenses involved in shipping the stuff to Maximus, the wait, and inconvenience placed on Maximus's shoulders. The community tries to do a good thing, to get the cep spread around to as many people as possible, and it's chumps like you that try to ruin it... |
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heilel
Game Owner
NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
NWN 2
Joined: 30 Aug 2003 |
Posted: Monday, 03 May 2004 11:04AM |
First thing we do, let’s kill all the lawyers.”
--William Shakespeare |
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Architeuthis
Game Owner
NWN
Joined: 15 Jul 2002 |
Posted: Tuesday, 04 May 2004 04:27AM |
Quote: Posted 05/02/04 20:47:30 (GMT) by Drewskie
What a sour puss. Anything you contributed is most likely garbage anyways...
I'm sure pc gamer has compenent lawyers. Why don't you start a law suit? Maybe you can arrange for some royalties. Christ...
Can you actually read? Didn't I just post that I was going to give PC Gamer UK the permission they asked for?
If my stuff in CEP is "garbage", I guess their claim that the content in CEP is the best that community has to offer must be "garbage" too. BTW, I did not "contribute" to CEP. I contributed to NW Vault. CEP took it upon themselves to redistribute content downloaded from NW Vault without honoring the right of the creators to decide how and when their work could be distributed.
One thing I have learned from my forays here is that honesty and respect for other people's rights are in much shorter supply than any but the most pessimistic person might imagine. It's no surprise that software piracy is at an all-time high, given the attitude so many people display toward the rights of others. No wonder the BioWare people sometimes lose their patience and strike out on the boards. There have been times when I have felt they were being overly harsh. I think I understand why a lot better now. Ask the BioWare people how they felt when they found out that someone had extracted models from NWN and HotU and was distributing them on the Web as custom Warcraft III models. Do you think that was right? I bet you see no problem with it.
Archi |
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Drewskie
Game Owner
NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
SW: KotOR PC
NWN 2
NWN 2: MotB
Mass Effect PC
Joined: 26 Jul 2002
From: Fargo, ND |
Posted: Tuesday, 04 May 2004 11:20PM |
A few more things...
Regarding the warcraft 3 extracted nwn models, I heard they did not work very well with the standard units with their high poly counts. In a mass battle game like warcraft 3, you need tons of stuff on screen at once, so that was obviously a problem.
NWN sold over a million copies. Don't you think someone recognized those models and cried "fraud"? Anyone dumb enough to pass off models from a high profile game like NWN as his own work would be the laughing stock of the mod community he was working in... To use a musical analogy, it would be like a cover band in a small town bar playing KISS and telling the crowd of 20 "yea, we really did write Detroit Rock City". Imitation is the greatest form of flattery... After you've collected your salary, and made a game which sold 1 million plus, if some punk thinks enough of your creature model to extract it out who cares? As long as they are'nt making any money off of it, of course...
Oh, and regarding the percieved money mongering exploiters at pc gamer... The vast majority of their mags with the demo disk go to paid subscribers...people who will get the cep on disk whether they want it or not. The one you see on the newstand is generally the one with no disk that the casual buyer might pick up, with a few copies in plastic with the disk in the back. I'd be willing to bet well over %95 of NWN owners who wanted the cep badly already have it, whether on dial-up or not. They downloaded it over night, got it from a freind, got it from the admin of the pw they play on, pestered Maximus, whatever...but they got it. I personally have offered to do this for people. That might leave a few hundred odd people who dont already have the cep and go out and buy pc gamer with disk for that specific reason. PC gamer gets maybe a 50 cent profit margin per issue on marginal sales. Chicken feed.
The real benefit of having the cep on PC Gamer is it gives some exposure to a subscriber who was not previously interested/aware(many people would surprised at some of the quality work on the cep), and it puts the cep on hard storage. Always nice to have all the half-life patches and mods on those disks for ease of installation. |
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