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 Inicio  Foros Índice de foros Neverwinter Nights NWN 1: Community Expansion Pack (CEP) NWN1.68, Cloaks, and CEPv1
NWN 1: Community Expansion Pack (CEP)
TheExcimer-500
Game Owner
 NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
Suscrito: 21 may 2002
De: Top Floor in Queens... no longer NJ |
 Colgado: miércoles, 30 agosto 2006 10:34 |
NOTE: I'll be brief as we all want me to spend the time doing rather than speaking.
1) The "new" cloaks will break characters using the CEPv1 cloaks that have existed since CEP first came out. Characters entering a game with the existing CEP cloaks will experience the dreaded inventory problem once they decloak. I would go into the details here, but see NOTE.
2) NWN1.68 came out in final form last night. CEP is not employed by Bioware (for that matter we receive no compensation whatsoever for CEP work). We did not know in advance that they were going to release 1.68 yesterday. We have been following the betas for 1.68 & were completing CEPv2 to handle them.
3) Due to the dreaded inventory bug, I am working on a patch for CEPv1.
4) Due to #3 I am now not working on CEPv2.
5) Due to #4, I will not be fishing this weekend, again.
Here's the current status of the patch for CEPv1:
http://www.1storder.net/cep2/ip.jpg
In other words, it is close, but there still remains some work to be done on it.
_________________
1st Order of Role-Players' Guild still gaming 4+ years later
Excimer's 2da Combinulator | 
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Ginasue
Game Owner
 NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
Suscrito: 11 abr 2002
De: Riverside County, California |
Colgado: miércoles, 30 agosto 2006 10:51 |
Sits at her computer, shakes her head, then feels so overwhelmed.
I've been there testing, working on my mod, and felt that I was ready for cep 2, but then bioware comes up with something that breaks cep 1.
Now Bioware knows that a lot of people out there, and I would say about 99 percent of the people have cep on there mod. Yet they didn't care. All they wanted to do was take the cloaks that they made for NWN2 and put them into NWN.
Maybe I'm wrong there, but a patch this late in the game to do that, doesn't seem right. | |
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ChaosInTwilight
Game Owner
 NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
NWN 2
NWN 2: MotB
NWN 2: SoZ
Mass Effect
Suscrito: 21 jun 2003
De: Expelitive. |
Colgado: miércoles, 30 agosto 2006 11:11 |
Gina hon, your wrong. With several Beta's of 1.68, its neither a suprise, nor a shock that it doesn't play well with neck cloaks.
Click Here
Likewise, it seems pretty simple to solve. And bear in mind, the history behind these cloaks.
Click Here
Click Here
_________________
Quote: You shouldn't be offended by this; by hacker standards, your respondent is showing you a rough kind of respect simply by not ignoring you.
Migrating Traps U: 10May08 | |
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Xiphias
Game Owner
 NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
SW: KotOR PC
NWN 2
Mass Effect PC
Suscrito: 17 jul 2002
De: The Third Foundation |
Colgado: miércoles, 30 agosto 2006 11:28 |
Quote: Posted 08/30/06 22:51:05 (GMT) by Ginasue
All they wanted to do was take the cloaks that they made for NWN2 and put them into NWN.
NWN2 is being handled by a seperate company, I wasn't aware bio had been hired to do some of the content for it. Anyone got a linky?
_________________
Pay no attention to the bear behind the curtain. | |
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Ginasue
Game Owner
NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
Suscrito: 11 abr 2002
De: Riverside County, California |
Colgado: miércoles, 30 agosto 2006 11:31 |
I know Hart, it's just that I really didn't pay attenction to that patch, cause it was in beta.
For months now, I've been working on Menzo. Getting it ready for CEP 2. Lot of things fixed, Cloaks in the stores using the new CEP ones, and now I'm going to have to go in and maybe change all of that.
Just like I said, felt overwhelmed with all that I have done, and now still have to do.
But like the true gamer I am, I'll smile, and go back to work on the mod once more, and fix all that I have too.
At least I have two weeks left until my scripter move to Tenn full time and sets up his computer there. | |
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TheExcimer-500
Game Owner
NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
Suscrito: 21 may 2002
De: Top Floor in Queens... no longer NJ |
Colgado: miércoles, 30 agosto 2006 11:38 |
Actually CIT you're a bit wrong.
Lisa's second stab at cloaks that you linked to would work fine with CEPv1, as they used the neck slot that was established as a cape/cloak slot for them. So the known history of these cloaks was that they wouldn't cause a problem with CEP. Then all of that changed with NWN1.68Beta1. So how long have these cloaks been worked on? One year, two? How long has CEP had to make them compatible with pre-existing content? One month? Two?
These new cloaks could have been implemented slightly differently in 1.68 (while still using the cloak equipment slot rather than armor-neck) to co-exist with the existing non-appearing cloaks that have been used in game and in modules for years. They weren't.
Are they easy to fix?
Not exactly. Craig's mention of just changing the 2da for the new baseitem line only allows the new cloaks to appear in-game. Simultaneously causing characters, modules, etc that were using the long-time existing CEP "cloaks" (the non-appearing, equipment not the neck-cloaks were talking about here) to have serious problems.
EOLEdited By TheExcimer-500 on 08/31/06 00:02 | |
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Squirtikiss
Game Owner
 NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
Suscrito: 29 ago 2006 |
Colgado: miércoles, 30 agosto 2006 11:52 |
Would it be possible for everyone to just not download the 1.68 patch? I have been building a module and I think it is working just fine without 1.68. I actually do not want to install the newest patch. This leads to my second question. After all the extra work that is done to make CEP compatible, will it still work just fine with 1.67? I hope so.
Many thanks to the CEP team and all the other people who have uploaded their work for others to use. It has been these people who have kept NWN alive all these years. I would not have purchased any of the expansions without the community support. | |
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TheExcimer-500
Game Owner
NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
Suscrito: 21 may 2002
De: Top Floor in Queens... no longer NJ |
Colgado: jueves, 31 agosto 2006 12:01 |
One last comment before I return to work on this patch.
Firstly there are two kinds of cloaks in existence and a distinction needs to be made:
Neck/Armor-Capes: These are part of the armor's neck-slot. They exist in CEPv1 and appear on the PC. I'm calling these CAPES from now on, as the majority of them appear as jiggly-capes. Although when used with 1.68 cloaks your character will appear "double-cloaked", these do not otherwise cause any problems in 1.68.
"Cloak"- this is the item that appears in the characters' cloak slot. In 1.67 they did not come with a visual appearance (just like gloves or gauntlets). Instead all they had was a 2D appearance in the characters' inventory slot. In 1.68 these were given a 3D appearance for the characters' models. The original NWN 14 2D-cloaks were exchanged with 7 new models (structure) using 14 new skins (the color designs).
The problem here is that in CEPv1 there were also 8 additional 2D-cloaks. (Over 100 in CEPv2 *sighs*). As these do not have an associated 3-d model or new plt textures, they are not compatible at all with 1.68 and in testing will disrupt the PC's inventory.
So for now, we're working on fixing this for CEPv1.
I know it's a tense time out there for everyone. It's very tense over here as well. We're doing the best we can to address this problem in a timely manner. | |
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Kephisto
Game Owner
 NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
Suscrito: 31 ago 2002 |
Colgado: jueves, 31 agosto 2006 12:53 |
To add to what TheExcimer-500 has said, there's a big difference between what exists in a beta of any release and the final release. Our team is not part of BioWare and thus we usually find out exact details about patches exactly when everyone else does. Besides that, virtually nothing in NWN is simple to solve until you get tons of people to beta test and prove the so called simple solution works for most people. Otherwise it is just a theory that happens to work for a limited group of people.
As TheExcimer-500 touched on right before my post here, things get pretty complicated real quick once you reveal all the various details behind the scenes.
We humbly point out that those along the likes of BioWare and DLA may have spent the better part of a year to create and test these new v1.68 cloaks and to their own admission it wasn't so simple and easy.
With that said, please excuse me for not being all together amused that anyone thinks our team of four people is just going to magically compress the several months BioWare and DLA had to wrestle and test and refine their new v1.68 cloaks while we only have ...
... yeah, right, the past 24 hours.
Again, beta patches are nice but they are not the final release version. There were other things in the patch that could have changed so I remind everyone nobody in this community can stand up and say our team should have known anything.
DLA has worked with BioWare on their previously premium module and that means they've had in depth detailed information and access, far above and beyond our own, and knew they needed patch v1.68 to come out before releasing their module. This was known months ago.
But our team didn't know much if anything at all about v1.68 and likewise for most of everyone else here. It is unusual to imagine anyone easily accepting the task of testing and refining in mere days what some other group, working directly with BioWare, spent about a year working on for v1.68.
Just some thoughts for everyone to, perhaps, cut us some slack. 
_________________
CEP Team
Kephisto@nwncep.com
Professionals don't know everything.
Sometimes inspired amateurs know something.Edited By Kephisto on 08/31/06 00:57 | |
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BelatrixDeSunkiller
Game Owner
 NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
NWN 2
Suscrito: 24 dic 2003
De: Virginia USA |
Colgado: jueves, 31 agosto 2006 12:55 |
Well that answers one of my questions. We can all wait for the CEP patch.
And yes it would be nice if Bioware would work a little better with CEP since it is used for 99% of the PWs out there. I think a lot of patches would have performed better if they had done so. But that is water under the bridge all they have done is to delay CEP 2.0 coming out and make the team go crazy to patch what had been working perfectly.
I feel for you guys I really do. I'll wait for the cep patch.
_________________
The world of Kil'Dar awaits it's champions.
Legends of Talan'ith is a dynamic world which allows broad playing styles and a world which characters can effect.
http://swords.cc | |
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ChaosInTwilight
Game Owner
NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
NWN 2
NWN 2: MotB
NWN 2: SoZ
Mass Effect
Suscrito: 21 jun 2003
De: Expelitive. |
Colgado: jueves, 31 agosto 2006 12:56 |
Quote: Posted 08/30/06 23:31:18 (GMT) by Ginasue
I know Hart, it's just that I really didn't pay attenction to that patch, cause it was in beta.
Beta patch's are frankly the Most important kind, so those who work with CC can see these problems in advance and work out problems before they become problems.
Quote: Posted 08/30/06 23:38:39 (GMT) by TheExcimer-500
Lisa's second stab at cloaks that you linked to would work fine with CEPv1, as they used the neck slot that was established as a cape/cloak slot for them. So the known history of these cloaks was that they wouldn't cause a problem with CEP. Then all of that changed with NWN1.68Beta1. So how long have these cloaks been worked on? One year, two? How long has CEP had to make them compatible with pre-existing content? One month? Two?
These new cloaks could have been implemented slightly differently in 1.68 (while still using the cloak equipment slot rather than armor-neck) to co-exist with the existing non-appearing cloaks that have been used in game and in modules for years. They weren't.
Are they easy to fix?
Not exactly. Craig's mention of just changing the 2da for the new baseitem line only allows the new cloaks to appear in-game. Simultaneously causing characters, modules, etc that were using the long-time existing CEP "cloaks" (the non-appearing, equipment not the neck-cloaks were talking about here) to have serious problems.
Not to make light of the amount of work you have, but wouldn't be obvious solution be to either disable the 1.68 cloaks in CEP 1.54(assumed name) or to copy neck slot #001 to the CEP cloaks that exist now. Admittedly you've got a lot on your collective plate now, but if your patching as a "holding action" until CEP V2 is finalized, It would seem making a 1.54 patch is a relatively minor thing. I assume its the changes needed for CEP V2, that are the real killer now.
As far as CEP Cloak ITEMS go..should be able to take one of the 1.68 cloak models and use that for the visual refrence for the CEP cloaks items no? I freely admit, I didn't foresee a problem with the cloak items, I only saw one with the cloak PC-parts.
_________________
Quote: You shouldn't be offended by this; by hacker standards, your respondent is showing you a rough kind of respect simply by not ignoring you.
Migrating Traps U: 10May08 | |
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Kephisto
Game Owner
NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
Suscrito: 31 ago 2002 |
Colgado: jueves, 31 agosto 2006 01:26 |
Quote: Posted 08/31/06 00:56:03 (GMT) by ChaosInTwilight
...
Beta patch's are frankly the Most important kind, so those who work with CC can see these problems in advance and work out problems before they become problems.
...
I appreciate the thought, ChaosInTwilight, but perhaps I can kindly remind you there are well over 500 new creatures in CEP v2, well over a few thousand new placeables and items, dozens of new features and - wow, even rideable horses - so just exactly how simple and easy are you assuming it is for our four members on our team to test all that before an official patch to prevent any problems?
This is not a hostile statement or position towards ChaosInTwilight - merely a friendly observation to point out the difference between one person working on their own module and one small team working on something some two million people with different modules and PWs are going to use and upgrade.
Betas are betas, nothing more. The final version of anything may very well be vastly different, with its own unique problems, than any beta. That's why BioWare makes more patches - bugs always come out after a final patch and that's a multi million dollar company that usually spends a few months going from beta 1 to final.
Like anywhere else, each new version of the v1.68 beta was different, adding or adjusting something. It is thus unlikely for anyone to prevent all major problems merely by testing a beta. Nobody knows the final verdict until the final version of a patch is release. Nothing more.
Quote: Posted 08/31/06 00:56:03 (GMT) by ChaosInTwilight
Not to make light of the amount of work you have, but wouldn't be obvious solution be to either disable the 1.68 cloaks in CEP 1.54(assumed name) or to copy neck slot #001 to the CEP cloaks that exist now. Admittedly you've got a lot on your collective plate now, but if your patching as a "holding action" until CEP V2 is finalized, It would seem making a 1.54 patch is a relatively minor thing. I assume its the changes needed for CEP V2, that are the real killer now.
As far as CEP Cloak ITEMS go..should be able to take one of the 1.68 cloak models and use that for the visual refrence for the CEP cloaks items no? I freely admit, I didn't foresee a problem with the cloak items, I only saw one with the cloak PC-parts.
Again, not bearing a hostile stance towards ChaosInTwilight. I wonder, however, how exactly are you suggesting such an obvious solution as disabling the cloaks in the next version of CEP? While we are trying to work on various options and potential solutions do you have any proven methods that you've come up with that can help us out? Not theories, nice as those are, but proven and tested means of fixing this for everyone?
If you do, please send it to support@nwncep.com and if the file exceeds 20MB then I will gladly set up an ftp account for you to upload it to our team for sending to the community for others to thankfully beta test it. We would also appreciate all documenation you have on the matter so we know how best to tell others to install, update, and test it.
If you don't, right now that is, then its certainly ok because I'm not pushing the matter. I merely point out that if someone doesn't have a fully tested and proven method that they came up with to solve all these problems then they are the last ones on this planet (no offense) to tell everyone this issue with NWN v1.68 is a simple matter for us to fix.
TheExcimer-500 has stated some of the critical issues at hand and that alone should tell everyone that if it was truly simple and easy CEP v2 would have been out already and we wouldn't be having this discussion.
Once again, I am not trying to be hostile to anyone and I'm not the only one on the CEP Team that knows all too well the chaos whenever a new NWN patch comes out.
We are working extremely hard and doing the very best we can with a NWN v1.68 patch that only went final yesterday and, which nobody can possibly dispute, the final version is way different than NWN v1.68 beta 1. It is also not really possible to dispute that usually a NWN patch takes 3 or 4 betas before release and the last one, v1.67, took months before it went live.
I think v1.68 took less than a month to go from beta 1 to final. Imagine that. The fastest NWN patch I've ever seen.
I thank everyone for their time and hope my words are taken with the warm hearted (yet pressured) feelings that I have towards NWN v1.68. The chaos caused by the recent CEP tridents vs BioWare tridents affair was awful so I'm not amused by this one regarding cloaks.
There could be more conflicting surprises in store for all of us. However, trust me, please don't get me started on that issue.
_________________
CEP Team
Kephisto@nwncep.com
Professionals don't know everything.
Sometimes inspired amateurs know something.Edited By Kephisto on 08/31/06 01:37 | |
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Ginasue
Game Owner
NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
Suscrito: 11 abr 2002
De: Riverside County, California |
Colgado: jueves, 31 agosto 2006 01:34 | |
Do what you can, as you can, those of us who are behind you in knowning that it takes time and engrey to do something, will wait. We will stand behind the four of you all the way | |
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RoxyFerret
Game Owner
 NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
NWN 2
NWN 2: MotB
NWN 2: SoZ
Mass Effect PC
Suscrito: 22 oct 2002
De: Possum Lodge |
Colgado: jueves, 31 agosto 2006 04:55 |
I'm totally against anyone trying to simplify the work of a four person team who have had to constantly modify their work (for free, and at a major loss of quality home and family time, as the case may be) so that some jerk can bicker, bribe, coerce, or otherwise try to bully anyone into finishing off something for that person to enjoy without actually putting some kind of energy into it themselves before the final product is release-worthy.
Many haks are involved, and several updates have been implemented, nevermind broken work that looked good on paper until the CEP team came upon it, found errors and fixed them.
Give the CEP team some breathing space and either put up (help) or shut.. (still helping), but stop the damned whining already. They know what they're doing better than you do, or you'd be running the CEP team yourself. Sheesh!
~ Roxy
_________________
Uuma quena en'mani lle ume. Uma ta ar'lava ta quena ten'irste'. | |
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ChaosInTwilight
Game Owner
NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
NWN 2
NWN 2: MotB
NWN 2: SoZ
Mass Effect
Suscrito: 21 jun 2003
De: Expelitive. |
Colgado: jueves, 31 agosto 2006 05:00 |
Quote: Posted 08/31/06 01:26:40 (GMT) by Kephisto
I appreciate the thought, ChaosInTwilight, but perhaps I can kindly remind you there are well over 500 new creatures in CEP v2, well over a few thousand new placeables and items, dozens of new features and - wow, even rideable horses - so just exactly how simple and easy are you assuming it is for our four members on our team to test all that before an official patch to prevent any problems?
This is not a hostile statement or position towards ChaosInTwilight - merely a friendly observation to point out the difference between one person working on their own module and one small team working on something some two million people with different modules and PWs are going to use and upgrade.
Betas are betas, nothing more. The final version of anything may very well be vastly different, with its own unique problems, than any beta. That's why BioWare makes more patches - bugs always come out after a final patch and that's a multi million dollar company that usually spends a few months going from beta 1 to final.
Like anywhere else, each new version of the v1.68 beta was different, adding or adjusting something. It is thus unlikely for anyone to prevent all major problems merely by testing a beta. Nobody knows the final verdict until the final version of a patch is release. Nothing more.
With ya 100% bud, I'm just hoping that ya'll are taking it in stride and were well aware of the new cloaks vs old cloaks problem since 1.68B1 was released.
Quote: Again, not bearing a hostile stance towards ChaosInTwilight. I wonder, however, how exactly are you suggesting such an obvious solution as disabling the cloaks in the next version of CEP? While we are trying to work on various options and potential solutions do you have any proven methods that you've come up with that can help us out? Not theories, nice as those are, but proven and tested means of fixing this for everyone? If you do, please send it to support@nwncep.com and if the file exceeds 20MB then I will gladly set up an ftp account for you to upload it to our team for sending to the community for others to thankfully beta test it. We would also appreciate all documenation you have on the matter so we know how best to tell others to install, update, and test it.
I wouldn't even call it a theory. More like a notion, but its pretty cut and dry that as far as a fix goes, you want the simplest possible method with the least possible effort. If for no other reason than so you can return to working on CEP2.X series. With due respect, is it not in a way a good thing that this happened before CEP2.0 was out. Insofar as it will not require such a massive change to need CEP 2.1 to deal with the problem of reverse compatability?
Regradless, disabling the 1.68 cloaks in a patch is exactly that a "We know its a problem, its going to take a signifigant amount of effort, this is a solution for the time being." It's just my own thoughts, but I imgagine its a problem better tabled, than to spend signifigant effort in the soon-to-be-outdated CEP series.
Quote: If you don't, right now that is, then its certainly ok because I'm not pushing the matter. I merely point out that if someone doesn't have a fully tested and proven method that they came up with to solve all these problems then they are the last ones on this planet (no offense) to tell everyone this issue with NWN v1.68 is a simple matter for us to fix.
...
We are working extremely hard and doing the very best we can with a NWN v1.68 patch that only went final yesterday and, which nobody can possibly dispute, the final version is way different than NWN v1.68 beta 1. It is also not really possible to dispute that usually a NWN patch takes 3 or 4 betas before release and the last one, v1.67, took months before it went live.
I think v1.68 took less than a month to go from beta 1 to final. Imagine that. The fastest NWN patch I've ever seen.
Again, your right on the money, Although, I woudl dispute that historically speaking, the average patch had 2, sometimes 3 beta. 1.67 was the exception with 4 beta's. *Grins* Show's you how much I watch beta's. At any rate, quite true about 1.68 getting out the door quick, but damned do those new cloaks look whistle-worthy.
Quote: I thank everyone for their time and hope my words are taken with the warm hearted (yet pressured) feelings that I have towards NWN v1.68. The chaos caused by the recent CEP tridents vs BioWare tridents affair was awful so I'm not amused by this one regarding cloaks.
There could be more conflicting surprises in store for all of us. However, trust me, please don't get me started on that issue.
While I may at times come off as an ***(No, you didn't say it I did.), I hope you do know Khepisto, that most people who post here regularly aren't your average idiotic forum troll, and a good deal of your forums regular's, take a specific morbid delight in setting such trolls alight when not chasing them with burning brands.
For what its worth, I keep my torch handy when visiting the forums of "Official groups" (Term used to describe bioware, as well as most community teams) just incase I encounter such trolls. I appoligize if I came across as that which I loath.
_________________
Quote: You shouldn't be offended by this; by hacker standards, your respondent is showing you a rough kind of respect simply by not ignoring you.
Migrating Traps U: 10May08 | |
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