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 Inizio  Forum Indice del forum Neverwinter Nights NWN 1: Modules Discussion What are the elements of a good (or bad) module?
NWN 1: Modules Discussion
Uty
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 NWN
Registrato il: 20 giu 2002 |
 Inviato: mercoledì, 20 settembre 2006 04:02 | |
Once NWN2 is out and I have played through the original content I plan on making my first module. I thought it would be useful for me (and other first time builders) to read some ideas regarding what makes a module good and what makes a module bad. Plus it would make for interesting discussion. What do you guys look for in user made mods and what makes them fun to play? | 
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Aikanaro
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 NWN
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NWN: HotU
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Registrato il: 23 nov 2001
Da: England |
Inviato: mercoledì, 20 settembre 2006 04:38 |
Quote: Posted 09/20/06 16:02:00 (GMT) by Uty
What do you guys look for in user made mods and what makes them fun to play?
***Everything I write below is an opinion. Disagreement with some of what I'm going to say is inevitable, but I have no interest in a protracted argument. Unless it seems like fun. Hey, go wild.***
Anything that shows the module builder has made an effort to think beyond the tired, often used adventure ideas is a good thing. For example, absolutely no 'Bring me the head of the bandit/goblin/giant' quests. And in fact anything involving dwarf mines being overtaken by an evil force/a supply caravan being raided by orcs is likely to disappoint me. Likewise rats in the cellar.
In fact, in story terms please try to avoid the standard fantasy quests. I always just assume the builder doesn't have much imagination when my character gets ordered to go to three increasingly dangerous places to recover three pieces of an ancient talisman, and similar.
Parody of the above is also no longer acceptable to me personally, as it has become just as much a cliche. The trouble with parody is that it has to be better than the original in terms of both story and gameplay, otherwise it feels pointless to me.
Having said that, I honestly will forgive any aspect of a story if the NPCs are well-rounded and sound like individuals. I couldn't care less about romances, but banter and friendship is a good thing.
I like to see little individual touches throughout the module. A couple of NWN modules I've played have had the ability for thieves to steal valuable items directly from display dummies in weapon and clothing stores, for instance. That's fun, because it's not in most modules and it shows that the builder has attempted to provide things to do that go beyond the expected.
I prefer a smaller number of themed, carefully put together battle situations rather than a string of meaningless hack and slash encounters. Preferably some of these encounters should be avoidable through dialogue options, but not all of them.
I like to see plenty of unique items, stretching from weapons and armour to books containing newly written background information. it doesn't much matter to me where the module is set, but if it's a custom world please don't use the 'Disney assimilates medieval Europe' pattern common to many. If you're going to do that, there's no point in using a custom setting at all.
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MikeLM9215
Game Owner
 NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
SW: KotOR PC
NWN 2
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NWN 2: SoZ
Mass Effect PC
Registrato il: 05 mag 2004 |
Inviato: mercoledì, 20 settembre 2006 06:21 |
This really should be in the NWN2 forums. People who got the early toolset won't be reading posts here, and the game should have a totally different feel than NWN1. Anything you learn here won't be very useful.
There are a few that will apply anywhere: Give characters conversations with the PC, conversations with NPCs and comments about NPCs, quests, tactics, and places. Don't have 1st level characters fighting lots of creatures armed with bows or crossbows. They'll be dead before they ever get into a fight. Don't give the PC's quests; hire them for jobs, or let them find out about things on their own. Don't make every NPC friendly, some only respect a bully. And don't give the enemy death spells when the PC has low saves and no chance to buy protection.
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tannhausser
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 NWN
NWN: SoU
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NWN 2
Registrato il: 10 ago 2004
Da: Canada |
Inviato: mercoledì, 20 settembre 2006 06:22 |
Well, I know a lot of people will go on about custom content and the mod "being different" but I have never really cared much about that. I like a good storyline, good dialogue, and henchmen who are more than cutouts. If you put the work in, the old tried and true stories work very well. weird for the sake of being weird is pretty dull!
Also have the townspeople and others be more forward in the module and fleshed out. I want the feeling that I am moving through THEIR lives rather than them waiting an eternity just to speak to me. I mean when have we ever seen a romance for example with one of the "little people" in the town?
I do not like;
-Food, sleep, and bedroll requirements as they add little to the realism, but are a real annoyance. The NWN1 engine isn't really compatible with these things. This may differ with NWN2?
-Alignment changes for opening a locked container. I can see a change for taking something, but not for looking.
-Alignment changes for dialogue. I have seen alignment changes when I am talking to a bad guy and I agree with him about something to get him to admit, or reveal something and boom...Alignment change. Grrrr...
-Cut-scenes that when they are done, deposit you in the middle of a room in the midst of the bad guys without any option to run or buff up. For fighter types this matters less but for rogues it can be a killer.
-Evil characters! If someone wants to play them, well thats fine...whatever floats your boat. I do not want to do so, and don't play modules where I am forced to do so. Even if the storyline demands an evil character give us the option of repenting of our wicked life!
-Peasants should not be 8th level, nor should they have magic rings to give after you rescue their cow. Perhaps it could mean that you gain a reputation for good deeds done dirt cheap and this leads to the local librarian mentioning that old stone doorway jebediah found in the woods.
-If the story is not going to be linear then make sure some clues are around that say to the first level player that going into the Lich Crypt is not wise! IMHO linear modules work better due to the limitations of the game engine.
I do like;
-Optional choices on module setup regarding resting rules, death system, etc. I honestly have no idea how difficult this is, but it is nice.
-If you are going to item strip TELL US BEFORE. It is really not fun to spend time setting up a character with just the right equipment only to wake up naked on a sandy beach.
-Fleshed out npc's. They are one of the major parts of the story you can control to make it more immersive. Have people lie to us, not a nudge, nudge, wink, wink sort of lie, but a real one. Farmer John was embarrassed that he ran, screaming like a little girl, from the bugbear so he maybe exaggerates or invents things in the story. Things like that really add to the idea that these are real people.
-Good dialogue.
-Well though out henchmen. Have henchmen who will not put up with some things. Mischa is SoU not letting me loot the crypt kinda bugged me but I liked it at the same time. A thief who actually steals things and brings trouble down on all of you. Maybe you then have to go before the local judge to plea your case. Have your henchmen ask/demand some magic item from the treasure. If you really want it then trade him two items of equal or greater value. Things like that. | |
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Amberyl Ravenclaw
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 NWN
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Jade Empire:SE
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Mass Effect PC
Registrato il: 06 dic 2003
Da: MA, USA |
Inviato: mercoledì, 20 settembre 2006 10:11 |
Break with convention. Do something out of the box. It may be tough, but honestly, after playing an average of 100 modules, NO MORE BORING QUESTS puhleaze. Like someone has said, all those rats in the cellars and heads of bandit chiefs. *chuckles* This might be digressing, but a Biblical tale had the main character bring back a hundred foreskins as proof... no, I won't go into details.
Some things need to be given more thought. Some ideas are usually glossed over, and could have been given a new twist or two. For example, I generally enjoy rogue modules, but ones which immediately set you up into this position earn a frown from me nowadays:
"You are the grandchild of the (stereotypical) elderly but benign rogue guild leader in a city. First you must perform some tasks to prove your worth (stealing, assassinating, disarming traps, yawn). Ohcrap! Looks like someone has overthrown your patron and branded you a traitor. You will now have to fight your way out, rescue the loyal members, slay the evil new guy, etc etc... And above all, avoid the oh-so-prissy uptight religious ruling paladin class of the city!"
Sorry if I blew a few nerves there, but while this scenario was great before, playing about five similiar modules is not so great. It's called oversaturation. How about a new angle? How about one where you're working in a thieves' guild, but have a good conscience and plan to escape? Escaping doesn't result in death, but there'll be a price on your head - both by the authorities and former guild, with no backup whatsoever, etc etc. Think unconventional. The people playing NWN1 and NWN2 modules have seen a lot, and you don't want to see them yawn.  | |
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dbankier
Game Owner
 NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
SW: KotOR PC
Jade Empire:SE
NWN 2
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Mass Effect PC
Registrato il: 05 apr 2006
Da: England |
Inviato: giovedì, 21 settembre 2006 12:32 |
Alignment changes - I'm not too keen on large shifts to lawful or chaotic. It can be annoying when trying to stick to a strict alignment like Paladins, Monks or Druids have to, and there's a shift I don't agree with. I'd really like to see more of the system used in WCoC where you get a small amount of bonus experience for roleplaying your alignment with the choices you make.
Huge, empty areas - there's no need for 16x16 areas, break them up into smaller pieces or shrink the area and cut out the empty spaces. Backtracking often gets quite annoying in NWN, but thankfully several recent modules seem to have implemented shortcuts like the maps in Bloodright and Saleron's Gambit 4.
Companions - I don't like it when they're all found in the same inn, and they all want to be paid a fee, like in the OC. This makes sense for mercenary NPCs, but surely not for most good-aligned NPCs. Also, the more interaction with companions the better - the best ones I've seen interject in conversations, some even object to choices made in-game.
Custom content - this isn't absolutely essential, but there are some very nice tilesets out there that help to make it feel like you're not playing the same game over and over again. Custom music is great for adding atmosphere too, especially as the standard music seems very overplayed to me by now. | |
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tdonadio
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 NWN
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NWN: HotU
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Registrato il: 18 ago 2002 |
Inviato: giovedì, 21 settembre 2006 01:12 |
Here are my thoughts on what make a good module:
1. An Interesting Story. I think of RPG modding as a kind of interactive fiction, and the most important part of a work of fiction is plot and story. The module has to tell a good story -- one that I like so much that I want to be right in the middle of it.
2. Camaraderie. That means well-developed henchmen who are not just meat-shields, or afterthoughts tacked on for variety. They should have clearly defined and interesting personalities, and most importantly, be integrated into the plot of the module. They should be there for a reason that makes a difference to the story. And I should be able to experience a strong sense of camaraderie with them, which means that they should have engaging and extensive dialogue.
3. Romance. There should be a potential romance available with one of the henchmen (of appropriate gender) that has the potential to develop into something serious.
4. Writing. The module should be well written. That means, not just the dialogue, but item and placeable descriptions, and journal entries. And I'm partial to conversations that contain descriptive as well as spoken text, just as you would find in a story.
There are other things, but that's enough for now (and I think those are the most important things). | |
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Rdawgo
Game Owner
 NWN: HotU
Registrato il: 12 nov 2004 |
Inviato: giovedì, 21 settembre 2006 05:04 |
Asking this question on this forum is going to result in a lot of recommendations for dynamic stories and well-developed characters. I also really favor these aspects in a mod. But this forum at this point in time is not necessarily a perfect cross-section of the NWN or NWN2 player base.
Of course good plotting and good dialogue will always help a mod, but I would also emphasize how important good combat can be. There are plenty of high-rated mods on the vault that have unimpressive or derivative stories or poor writing but that are justly highly-rated because they're simply damn fun to play. Combat balancing is an art unto itself in NWN, and not many authors excel in this area (I can think of maybe three or four who do). It's difficult to make combats that are neither too hard nor too easy for a wide gamut of players, especially because combat engine in NWN is pretty unspectacular. I'm hoping NWN2 will allow more dynamic, strategic battles given its party control system. Regardless, I'd encourage the original poster to consider carefully combat design as well, especially if he/she isn't a great wordsmith or master plotter. Judging from vault voting, there are plenty of players out there who favor combat over dialogue/plotting, even if they don't post here! | |
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Aristan
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 NWN
NWN: SoU
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Registrato il: 09 lug 2002
Da: Just over the line |
Inviato: giovedì, 21 settembre 2006 05:46 |
Quote: Posted 09/21/06 05:04:43 (GMT) by Rdawgo
... But this forum at this point in time is not necessarily a perfect cross-section of the NWN or NWN2 player base.
Of course good plotting and good dialogue will always help a mod, but I would also emphasize how important good combat can be. There are plenty of high-rated mods on the vault that have unimpressive or derivative stories or poor writing but that are justly highly-rated because they're simply damn fun to play. Combat balancing is an art unto itself in NWN, and not many authors excel in this area (I can think of maybe three or four who do). ... Judging from vault voting, there are plenty of players out there who favor combat over dialogue/plotting, even if they don't post here!
Can't agree with you more here (and I'm not trying to say that I'm brilliant at combat design).
Many (possibly most) players play a game for a mindless relief from everyday doldrums (it is a CRPG after all). Insuring the game is 'fun' should be the number one objective of any author who wants high downloads and votes. Now if an author cares more about telling a story than this is a different matter.
So what is 'fun'? Here is my belief: An engaging story that pulls you along. Fun quests and combat. Reasonable PC development. Everything else is 'gravy'.
(I'm not saying I've done this with Avertine and I believe at times I've made the game too 'heavy' for people wanting a diversion).
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tdonadio
Game Owner
NWN
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Registrato il: 18 ago 2002 |
Inviato: giovedì, 21 settembre 2006 12:12 |
Quote: Posted 09/21/06 05:46:20 (GMT) by Aristan
Many (possibly most) players play a game for a mindless relief from everyday doldrums (it is a CRPG after all). Insuring the game is 'fun' should be the number one objective of any author who wants high downloads and votes. Now if an author cares more about telling a story than this is a different matter.
You suggest this below, but just to make it explicit: a good story is an integral part of what makes a module fun in the first place. The events you're playing and the battles you're fighting need to mean something, and you need to care about them, in order to really enjoy an RPG. Otherwise, you might as well just play a first-person shooter, and NWN is overkill. And a good story is what creates that "hook" that draws you into the game and engages you in the events you're playing through.
As I said, there were other things that could have been added to my previous list -- and good, balanced combat probably would have been the next item. The importance of combat depends on the player, though, and from what I can see there are two fairly distinct camps among the players of NWN: the Role-Players and the Hack n' Slashers. I wouldn't want to make assumptions about which group is larger, or which has more representation on the forums -- but I don't believe that the role-players are a minor faction by any means.
As far as "mindless" gaming goes: as I said, if you really want that, you'd probably be better off with a first person shooter. I think that the RPG genre (including NWN) pretty much already assumes a certain amount of "mindfulness." Otherwise, you wouldn't be playing a role-playing game. How much is a matter of taste, and I'm definitely on the far end of the spectrum when it comes to writing and liking modules that are designed to "make you think." It's not everyone's cup of tea, but some of the best feedback I've gotten for "Sanctum of the Archmage" has focused on appreciation for the way it challenges the player to do that.
Quote: So what is 'fun'? Here is my belief: An engaging story that pulls you along. Fun quests and combat. Reasonable PC development. Everything else is 'gravy'.
Fair enough -- not everyone has the same priorities, nor should they. It does beg the question a little, though, about what makes a quest or a combat "fun." As far as combats go, I think that the best ones are challenging, but designed with a strategy in mind that can usually be used to win them. The problem is that peoples' combat skills vary so widely that it's very hard to balance them successfully for everyone.Edited By tdonadio on 09/21/06 12:34 | |
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s-c
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 NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
Registrato il: 02 ott 2004 |
Inviato: giovedì, 21 settembre 2006 01:04 |
Fun = the right balance between resistance and progress. The player has to feel both, in some proportion. This applies to every aspect -- combat, puzzles, exploration, conversation, plot structure, the equipment/money maximization minigame, etc.
(Typical 'too much resistance' scenarios: killer combats, large maze puzzles, quests that require endless backtracking in large areas, plots with too many "what the hell do I do now" points, plots with too much time between major advancements, the presence of lots of necessary loot without bags, stores, or companions... Typical 'too little resistance' scenario: fedex quest. Note that all these can still work *in the right context*.)
Having regular variation in kind and degree of challenges helps a lot. (E.g. put easier non-combat obstacles between tough combats, or vice versa.) The best games/mods have their own rhythm, none better than Tales of Arterra.
Even a story-lite mod can be lots of fun if well-assembled. Example: I'm playing through the Eye of the Beholder conversion for the first time (never played the original either), and it's a blast. Dialogs are barely there, but who cares for this one?
That said, lots of typos and poor grammar are likely to get your mod summarily dismissed by many. Proofread, or have someone else do it. And don't use long run-on sentences for dialog...Edited By s-c on 09/21/06 13:13 | |
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LdyShayna
Game Owner
 NWN
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Sonic DS
Registrato il: 18 ott 2001
Da: Colorado |
Inviato: giovedì, 21 settembre 2006 01:31 |
Quote: Posted 09/21/06 13:04:10 (GMT) by s-c
That said, lots of typos and poor grammar are likely to get your mod summarily dismissed by many. Proofread, or have someone else do it. And don't use long run-on sentences for dialog...
Similarly, please make use of the gender tags in dialog and description. The game will do the choices automatically, and the format is a simple <sir/madam> format, so I don't understand why my female characters should constantly be referred to as 'sir' or 'good man' or 'young lad'. This doesn't by itself mean a mediocre module, but I've noticed a lot of mediocre modules do this. If you give the player a choice in the character they play, make sure to pay attention to this little detail.
Most of the rest I would say has already been said. I would only reiterate that there's no such thing as either perfectly balance combat or a perfect balance between combat and non-combat elements. Don't bog yourself down with making the 'right' balance, just a balance that you find fun.
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Aristan
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Registrato il: 09 lug 2002
Da: Just over the line |
Inviato: giovedì, 21 settembre 2006 02:25 |
Quote: Posted 09/21/06 12:12:17 (GMT) by tdonadio
...
As far as "mindless" gaming goes: as I said, if you really want that, you'd probably be better off with a first person shooter. I think that the RPG genre (including NWN) pretty much already assumes a certain amount of "mindfulness." Otherwise, you wouldn't be playing a role-playing game. How much is a matter of taste, and I'm definitely on the far end of the spectrum when it comes to writing and liking modules that are designed to "make you think."
It sounds like we pretty much agree and I certianly don't represent every NWN player. As s-c indicated, for me a game has to balance resistance vs. progression. Too much resistance and I'll stop playing (as has happened for me wih a number of modules).
I know that not all CRPG players want to think a lot , but may not like the frantic pace of FPS either. My sister and brother-in-law play CRPGs. They do it to 'unwind'. They both have very serious lives and when they get home they want to relax and not use thier brains for an hour or two. They really enjoyed BG and IWD serieses to this regard. Decent story without too much 'work'. (Now I just need to get them to try NWN...)
Quote: ...As far as combats go, I think that the best ones are challenging, but designed with a strategy in mind that can usually be used to win them. The problem is that peoples' combat skills vary so widely that it's very hard to balance them successfully for everyone.
Totally agree. I think it is really easy for an author to make combat too hard. What is 'medium difficulty' for the builder is likely to be 'very difficult' for the player. There are a number of reasons for this.
One word to Uty. You might try searching the archives for this topic. This topic has come up many times over the years. Not saying that having the discussion is not of value again. It may even give different answers. I suspect the community has changed a lot over the years as the game 'ages'. | |
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Uty
Game Owner
NWN
Registrato il: 20 giu 2002 |
Inviato: giovedì, 21 settembre 2006 02:44 |
Thanks to everyone who has responded. Just some quick points. A few have questioned the utility of this post in this specific place. From a design perspective, I don't think there will be much difference between what makes NWN mods fun and what will make NWN2 mods fun. Those of you who run pen and paper games could consider how much your game planning changed between D&D v3 and v3.5. For me it wasn't that much. And for me NWN2 is basically a revised ruleset with prettier graphics, better henchmen, and some kind of mysterious fortress system. (I do not question the value of NWN2, in fact, I'm very excited. ) So it stands to follow that a conversation about module design could apply to both games and even future NWN releases.
I did a search for "module design" before posting, and any relevant threads had drowned in a sea of cloaks and CEP updates. They're probably out there. I just didn't look hard enough.  | |
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Aristan
Game Owner
NWN
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Registrato il: 09 lug 2002
Da: Just over the line |
Inviato: giovedì, 21 settembre 2006 02:59 |
To be fair, I did a quick search as well and got nothing. I even think I started a thread on this topic years back and can't find that either.
I've always had odd problems with the search engine. Not sure how it works, but it seems to search real fast but come up with 20% of the content. | |
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