WhiZard
Game Owner
 NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
Lié: 08 mar 2005
De: Seminary of Surprises |
 Posté: mercredi, 04 novembre 2009 05:15 |
Quote: Posted 11/04/09 16:29 (GMT) by WebShaman Quote: In order to do decent damage they need strength, and I only compared crossbows (assuming rapid reload) to throwing weapons without a decent strength.
Except for a Dex based Ranger thrower - it will get good damage against FEs, provided it also has BoE.
BoE and weapon specialization work also for a crossbow. Unless you churn up a decent enough strength, there doesn't seem much incentive for going throwing. |
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WebShaman
Game Owner
 NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
NWN 2
NWN 2: MotB
NWN 2: SoZ
Lié: 26 fév 2003
De: The Happy Hunting Grounds |
Posté: mercredi, 04 novembre 2009 11:11 |
Well, yes, of course FE and BoE will work with a crossbow!
But that was not the point.
You said that Dex builds would not get as much mileage as Str builds would, more or less.
Normally true, but a Dex based Ranger can get around that with his FE and BoE advantages.
That was my point.
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WhiZard
Game Owner
NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
Lié: 08 mar 2005
De: Seminary of Surprises |
Posté: jeudi, 05 novembre 2009 03:14 |
Quote: Posted 11/04/09 23:11 (GMT) by WebShaman
You said that Dex builds would not get as much mileage as Str builds would, more or less.
Where?
My point was comparing the primary weapons of builds.
High DC mages can often have a crossbow as their primary weapon. It works when spells don't or they need to conserve spells, and it doesn't require getting adjacent to the target. They also do not have the strength to make a throwing weapon worthwhile.
Arcane Archers have a bow as their primary weapon and often do not have need of a throwing weapon.
High Wisdom builds (like clerics and druids) even when taking zen archery will often do better with a crossbow or bow than a throwing weapon as the higher wisdom to the exclusion of strength means something for spell-casting.
High Strength builds tend to do better with a melee weapon.
High Dex builds with moderate strength still tend to do better finessing a melee weapon getting better crits with greater damage.
High Dex builds without a decent strength tend to do better with a crossbow.
Thus the range of builds that do better with a throwing weapon than any other weapon is pretty slim. Thus a throwing weapon is rarely ever the primary weapon of a build.
--
And the reason I am referring to primary weapon is that it has everything to do with feat investment. While a wizard may easily be able to afford epic weapon focus, improved crit, and rapid reload for the crossbow without diminishing his capabilities, investing in a second weapon will have an effect.
This goes for almost any build (besides, perhaps a high level fighter build). Builds by investing feats in their primary weapon will diminish the ability to put feats in their secondary weapon.
So you will rarely see a build with epic weapon specialization or devastating crit in throwing axe. So a direct comparison of one weapon to another does not take into account whether it is in the best interest for any build to invest in that weapon.Edited By WhiZard on 11/05/09 03:39 |
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onion eater
Game Owner
 NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
Lié: 28 mar 2006 |
Posté: jeudi, 05 novembre 2009 05:06 |
Every character should have a ranged option. For STR based builds, that ranged option is best filled by a thrown weapon. There are a lot of STR builds out there. Throwing axes most definitely have their place.
That said, any build that focuses on throwing axes is doing so because one wants to. It will work, but it won't be the most effective ranged build by any means. |
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Mulufoot
Game Owner
 NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
NWN 2
NWN 2: MotB
NWN 2: SoZ
Lié: 17 aoû 2002
De: California |
Posté: jeudi, 05 novembre 2009 05:44 |
The real killer is that throwing weapons are a "single slot" whereas a launcher and ammo are "two slots," thus providing for more bonus potentials. You can also get an unlimited ammo launcher, and bows are x3 crit.
One of my warriors actually uses throwing axes a lot, but mostly just because no one else will use them and they're heavy to carry for later sale, so it's easier to just throw them. 
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WebShaman
Game Owner
NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
NWN 2
NWN 2: MotB
NWN 2: SoZ
Lié: 26 fév 2003
De: The Happy Hunting Grounds |
Posté: jeudi, 05 novembre 2009 07:27 |
Here is where it is implied Quote: Quote: Posted 11/04/09 13:07 (GMT) by ffbj
WhiZard: It is the rare build that will focus on ranged weapons as their primary, so the idea that thrown axes are somehow inferior to a crossbow, because they are not a primary weapon, is a non-sequitor. As are a number of other statments you make. Onioneater is correct, thrown weapns rock. They are faster than a cross-bow, do decent damage, and allow a shield off-hand, or deflect arrow for monk. For axes, their only real disadvantage is their weigth. Btw darts were originally weightless way back when, not sure when it got changed.
(b)In order to do decent damage they need strength, and I only compared crossbows (assuming rapid reload) to throwing weapons without a decent strength.
(/quote)
As I said, one does not necessarily need decent str in a build for throwing weapons to do decent damage aka Ranger.
One can make a very nice throwing weapon build with a Ranger, btw. A nice Dex based Halfling Ranger with BoE and some Fighter levels, perhaps, for weapon spec?
I do realize that such also applies to a crossbow, but as I said before, that was not the point.
Such a build has some interesting advantages over a crossbow wielder.
Better AB (Halflings get a +1 AB bonus with thrown weapons) AND much better AC (throwing weapons can be used with a Shield).
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WhiZard
Game Owner
NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
Lié: 08 mar 2005
De: Seminary of Surprises |
Posté: jeudi, 05 novembre 2009 02:49 |
Quote: Posted 11/05/09 07:27 (GMT) by WebShaman Here is where it is implied Quote: Quote: Posted 11/04/09 13:07 (GMT) by ffbj
WhiZard: It is the rare build that will focus on ranged weapons as their primary, so the idea that thrown axes are somehow inferior to a crossbow, because they are not a primary weapon, is a non-sequitor. As are a number of other statments you make. Onioneater is correct, thrown weapns rock. They are faster than a cross-bow, do decent damage, and allow a shield off-hand, or deflect arrow for monk. For axes, their only real disadvantage is their weigth. Btw darts were originally weightless way back when, not sure when it got changed.
(b)In order to do decent damage they need strength, and I only compared crossbows (assuming rapid reload) to throwing weapons without a decent strength.
(/quote) As I said, one does not necessarily need decent str in a build for throwing weapons to do decent damage aka Ranger.
Yes, but the "decent damage" ffbj was referring to, was something that did not apply to the crossbow (hence strength). I used his terminology here. |
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duolis
Game Owner
 NWN 2
NWN 2: MotB
NWN 2: SoZ
Lié: 24 jui 2008 |
Posté: lundi, 09 novembre 2009 09:27 |
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I totally want a boomarang |
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ogbendog
Game Owner
 NWN: SoU
Lié: 04 jan 2009 |
Posté: lundi, 09 novembre 2009 10:32 |
for what it's worth, I'm playing an arcane archer, I started with a st 14, dx 16 as I recall.
with buffs, advancment and items, my dex tends to be around 32 or so (in C3 of the OC)
my st is +5 from a belt, I could get +3 more from an amulet and +2 from gloves for 24 = +7 damage. If I felt like Bull's st that's another +1 or +2
vs my bow which is mighty +3, then +3 from arcane archer
so even with a heavy dx build, I get slightly more damage from an ax.
Having read this thread, I might hang on to the next stack of magic throwing axes I find, it might be useful to do a bit more damage and have higher AC from my shield |
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Cinerith
Game Owner
 NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
Lié: 24 déc 2005 |
Posté: lundi, 09 novembre 2009 10:45 |
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Throwing weapons should work with I2WF. |
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WhiZard
Game Owner
NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
Lié: 08 mar 2005
De: Seminary of Surprises |
Posté: lundi, 09 novembre 2009 11:39 |
Quote: Posted 11/09/09 22:45 (GMT) by Cinerith
Throwing weapons should work with I2WF.
Yes, but unfortunately the off-hand can't take a weapon when a ranged weapon is in the mainhand, and you can't put a throwing weapon into the off-hand.Edited By WhiZard on 11/09/09 23:40 |
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ffbj
Game Owner
 NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
SW: KotOR PC
NWN 2
Lié: 01 fév 2002 |
Posté: mardi, 10 novembre 2009 06:40 |
The point about mages and low strength builds is correct, but then no one is really arguing that last point. With mages it's true it's a double whammy since they usually can't use shields either. So go with crossbow there.
Also I don't think anyone is saying anything about a primary weapon as thrown axes except you WhiZard. A number of other have said repeatedly that you need a ranged weapon, this implies it's not the primary, and yet you keep going back to that point. As a secondary I think ThrAxe are good for strength builds, since their main drawback is weight.
Sure strength, and many dex builds will have their primary as a melee weapon, either for damage or critical hit range, it would be stupid not too.
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Click HereEdited By ffbj on 11/10/09 06:45 |
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